Christian Rogues

[FatTony]

There are wolves, sheep and sheepdogs. The sheepdogs and the wolves have much in common, but the sheepdogs choose to protect, rather than prey upon, the sheep. The sheep despise and fear the sheepdog for his wolf-like qualities, for his teeth and claws, for the savagery he is sometimes required to commit on their behalf. The sheepdog often despises the sheep for their passiveness, dependence and unwillingness to protect themselves from the wolves. But the sheep and the sheepdog need each other. The sheep need the protection of the sheepdog, even as they fear and loathe him. The sheepdog needs the sheep to provide his purpose and to prevent his wolf side from ruling over him.

The sheep will graze, the wolves will hunt and the sheepdog will always stand between the two. Always.

My son is a sheepdog and is just beginning to understand the price he will have to pay for that choice, yet he stands steady between the wolves and the sheep even when the price is high. The wolves try to lure him out and into the pack, but he stands steady to protect the flock. The sheep, even as they rely on his protection, make it clear that he will never be invited into the flock, but he stands steady even as they whisper.

I learn from him, and I stand in awe.

[vic-chic]

so... I was wondering... are you referring to church people or Christians or just people in general?
I kind of think that all followers of Christ are the sheepdogs in our society.
I believe that true followers of Christ are supposed to be hated by the world.
I think for the most part, the church is part of the world that will hate true followers of Christ.

[logmas]

As it was in the days of Noah ....

[Christov]

On kind of a related rant, I don't like being compared to a dog, but I spent a lot of my time last week making sure my wife's five year-old nephew didn't injure my 15 month-old son. My wife kept asking me why I was so hard on the nephew, and telling me I shouldn't make him think I didn't like him. Her whole goal was to make sure there's no family rift over that kid's behavior problems. My whole goal was to make sure my son, smaller and weaker and lacking the experience to identify somebody who wants to hurt him, was kept safe from a predatory older kid. Familial "peace" that comes at the expense of my son's well-being is an evil that I will not tolerate.

[Flsprtsgod]

Familial "peace" that comes at the expense of my son's well-being is an evil that I will not tolerate.

Perfect metaphor for the lack of peace in the "family of Man."

[logmas]

Christov is right - but why? The following seems to fit.

Proverbs 8:14
Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.

What makes nations great? Since all men descend from Adam and Eve and are of the same blood, why are differences among nations so obvious (Gen 3:20; Acts 17:26)? How are some nations known for counsel, sound wisdom, understanding, and strength? The answer is very simple and has more impact on national power and prosperity than all the factors that men imagine combined. It is the degree of God’s wisdom in a nation. And where is that wisdom found? In the Bible, the inspired revelation from God! Amen!

The eighth chapter of Proverbs is an extended personification of wisdom as a woman. Lady Wisdom introduces herself (8:1-11), lists blessings of wisdom (8:12-21), describes her presence with God in the creation of the universe (8:22-31), and concludes (8:32-36). It is an error of interpretation to miss the context of this book and the figure of speech here and think Solomon wrote a mystical sermon about Jesus Christ. It helps to see his similar personifications of wisdom in other places (1:20-33; 3:13-20; 4:13; 9:1-12).

The context of this particular proverb is the wealth and power of nations, for Lady Wisdom continued on with descriptions of political prosperity and success. She described her blessing of justice for kings, princes, nobles, and judges of the earth (8:15-16). The counsel, sound wisdom, understanding, and strength here are the knowledge, inventions, advancements, enlightenment, and power that some nations have and others do not have.

Men have wondered for millennia at the greatness of some nations and the ignorance and poverty of others. Adam Smith (1723-1790) thought he had identified some important factors, and his book, “An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations,” is still considered an important thesis to this day. However, the decrees and providence of God are the primary reasons for the differences in created beings (Ps 75:6-7; Is 10:5-15; 45:9-10; Jer 18:1-10; Amos 3:2; Dan 2:21; 4:17; Rom 9:21-24; I Cor 4:7; Rev 17:17).

There are also practical reasons. When a nation rejects God’s word, He will destroy that nation (Lev 18:24-30; 22:20-26; 26:14-39; Deut 28:15-68; Ps 9:17). When a nation fears God and the Bible, He will bless (Lev 26:1-13,40-46; Deut 28:1-14; Ps 33:12-22; 89:15-18; 144:11-15). The ancient difference between Israel and Egypt is remarkable, as God protected and prospered His people, while they plundered their evil oppressors! Then they took the cities, moved into the furnished houses, drank from the wells, and used the vineyards of the seven nations of Canaan (Deut 6:10-12; Josh 24:11-13)! God annihilated seven nations and blessed another to take their place based on obedience to His words. And to think that such political wisdom is not taught in any university in the world!

The United States of America developed almost overnight from a few poor settlers on a wild continent to the wisest and most powerful nation on earth for one basic reason – the word of God was preached and obeyed more than any other nation since Israel under Moses or under godly kings like David or Hezekiah. The pagan Indians, which could not read, write, calculate, build, or imagine a wheel, could only watch the progress. Before that, there was England, where God’s word was published, read, and obeyed widely.

These two nations were miracles after the Dark Ages, for they had greater counsel in their homes and public deliberations, wisdom in their courts and schools, understanding in their government and laws, and strength in their economies and militaries than any other nation. The sun never set on the British Empire, which occupied only a small island of the sea; and the USA turned a wilderness into the most free, prosperous, and peaceful nation, which could when called upon fight wars on multi-fronts without fear of defeat.

Now, with both nations in full-blown decline, the reason is just as obvious – they have forsaken the God of their fathers and His word. Both nations legislate and promote wickedness from abortion to same sex marriages, from labor unions to bankruptcy protection, from pagan holidays to excluding prayer from schools, from cesspool entertainment to Godless education, and from neutered authority to confused civil rights.

Most of the churches that remain are dead with ritual, alive with Charismatic nonsense, or compromising as fast as they can to attract the unregenerate and worldly. Both nations religiously are in the throes of the perilous times of the last days (II Tim 3:1 – 4:5). The reason the collapse has not fully occurred yet is for the righteous remnant still in them and their prayers (Gen 18:23-33; Jer 29:4-7; I Tim 2:1-2). Pray for the peace of Babylon!

For further enlightenment from this inspired rule of wisdom and political prosperity, compare the nations of the earth in any generation. Measure their general religious practice by faithfulness to the Bible, and then quantify their overall counsel, sound wisdom, understanding, and strength. How do Catholic nations compare to Protestant nations? How do Muslim nations compare to Christian nations? What about those nations practicing Buddhism, Hinduism, animism, ancestor worship, voodoo, and so forth?

Reader! You can personally grow in counsel, sound wisdom, understanding, and strength by taking heed to God’s word yourself (Ps 1:1-6; 19:7-11; 119:1-176). You can have the certain words of truth to give to those who ask you any question (22:17-21; I Pet 3:15). The Bible is God’s gift of wisdom to His children, and it is your gravest duty and most glorious privilege to read it, meditate upon it, memorize it, promote it, defend it, and obey it. It is the only light in a dark world (Ps 119:128; Is 8:20; I Tim 6:3-5; II Pet 1:19-21). It can and will make you wise, if you will read it and attend to the faithful preaching of it.

[FatTony]

are you referring to church people or Christians or just people in general?

I actually had to give this some thought, unlike most of the stuff I write here. This kind of goes to the heart of Roguedom, doesn't it? We are all here, directly or indirectly, because of some level of dissatisfaction with the institutional church. It's structure, direction and/or membership.

So, who are the sheep,(Fat Tony's version)?

In my opinion, sheep will have one or more of the following distinguishing characteristics to some greater or lesser degree:

Sheep follow earthly leaders blindly. It doesn't matter whether the man standing in the front of the church on Sunday is called a priest, pastor, minister, rabbi, imam, prophet or Pope, he is just a man. This fellow may be better educated than you, he may be a better speaker than you but in the end, he puts his pants on one leg at the time. He is fallible, he is susceptible to greed, lust, false teachings, ego...all the same things you are susceptible to. Should you listen to him? Sure. But you should also check your own facts, do your own research, trust your own instincts, disagree when you believe he may be wrong. Scotty's friend Shane likes to say that ministers are God's representatives on earth. Really? Are the priests that molest children representing God? Are TV preachers with mansions, yachts and mistresses representing God? Are the imams that preach hatred and martyrdom representing God? Well if these men do not represent God, then there is no way that all the men that claim to be God's representatives could be. Check out the teaching you receive for yourself.

Sheep believe that only ministers can, well, minister. I have personally been ministered to by many people. Very few of those folks were paid professional clergy. I have been ministered to in word, in action and by example. I have been extraordinarily fortunate to have ministered to others on a very few occasions. Each of us has received direction and gifts from our Father from time to time. Each of us had had the answer that someone else was seeking. Where did that direction, those gifts come from? God. For a few seconds in my life, I have been an instrument of God. If I can be chosen, each of us can be chosen, if only for a moment.

Sheep follow fads, rules, lifestyles that are set forth by men, not God. Southern Baptists don't drink or dance. Catholics (used to) abstain from meat on Fridays. We give things up for Lent. Teens abstain from platonic dating. Fads come and go, fasting, meditation, life groups, accountability groups, condemnation of "worldly" music...on and on and on. Where do these things come from? Did Christ mandate them? No. They came from men. Want to partake, go ahead. If these things are important to you personally, do them. But don't follow the flock blindly! Don't do somthing just because the rest of the congregation does it. People get up and tearfully "testify", fall out in epileptic like seizures, speak gibberish...are these things of God? Maybe, but have you ever noticed how they seem to occur in clusters? Have you ever noticed that they seem to happen to one person and then spread?

Sheep believe in only one true form of worship. Worship is personal and comes in many forms. Worship can take place in a cathedral, a barn, a campsite, around a fire, alone in the truck, at your desk, anywhere and anytime you choose to worship, or feel the call to do so. Sheep believe that only their particular brand of worship is valid and any deviation is blasphemy. They believe in format rather than substance, procedure over content, choreography over authenticity. In their eyes, if you are not in church Sunday morning from 10-11 AM, wearing a tie and shined shoes, you cannot have a relationship with your Heavenly Father.

Sheep believe that questioning anything in the Bible is blasphemous. The Bible was written, interpreted and has been translated many times...by men. Fallible men. Men with agendas. Men without perfect knowledge of the intent of the words. Men without firsthand knowledge of the events they write about. A prime example is "Thou shall not kill". Virtually everyone, scholar and layman agrees that the correct meaning is "Thou shall not murder". So why is it not written that way? If the meaning is a prohibition against murder, the unjustified taking of a human life, rather than a prohibition against killing, ending the life of any living thing for any reason justified or not, why doesn't it say so? Sheep refuse even to consider that the words in the Bible could have been misinterpreted or distorted in the 2,000 or so years since they were first written.

So that's my rant. And you are free to agree or disagree, support it or debate it, question it, ridicule it, laugh at it, adopt it as your own....because no one here is a sheep.

[logmas]

are you referring to church people or Christians or just people in general?

I actually had to give this some thought, unlike most of the stuff I write here. This kind of goes to the heart of Roguedom, doesn't it? We are all here, directly or indirectly, because of some level of dissatisfaction with the institutional church. It's structure, direction and/or membership.

So, who are the sheep,(Fat Tony's version)?

In my opinion, sheep will have one or more of the following distinguishing characteristics to some greater or lesser degree:

Sheep follow earthly leaders blindly. It doesn't matter whether the man standing in the front of the church on Sunday is called a priest, pastor, minister, rabbi, imam, prophet or Pope, he is just a man. This fellow may be better educated than you, he may be a better speaker than you but in the end, he puts his pants on one leg at the time. He is fallible, he is susceptible to greed, lust, false teachings, ego...all the same things you are susceptible to. Should you listen to him? Sure. But you should also check your own facts, do your own research, trust your own instincts, disagree when you believe he may be wrong. Scotty's friend Shane likes to say that ministers are God's representatives on earth. Really? Are the priests that molest children representing God? Are TV preachers with mansions, yachts and mistresses representing God? Are the imams that preach hatred and martyrdom representing God? Well if these men do not represent God, then there is no way that all the men that claim to be God's representatives could be. Check out the teaching you receive for yourself.

Good point.

Sheep believe that only ministers can, well, minister. I have personally been ministered to by many people. Very few of those folks were paid professional clergy. I have been ministered to in word, in action and by example. I have been extraordinarily fortunate to have ministered to others on a very few occasions. Each of us has received direction and gifts from our Father from time to time. Each of us had had the answer that someone else was seeking. Where did that direction, those gifts come from? God. For a few seconds in my life, I have been an instrument of God. If I can be chosen, each of us can be chosen, if only for a moment.

How true, and to set the record straight is is EVERY Christians mission to minister. Faith without works is dead. And while we're at it, ministry does not mean just ROM (Running off at the mouth), ministry means doing a lot of other things by ministering to the needs of others.

Sheep follow fads, rules, lifestyles that are set forth by men, not God. Southern Baptists don't drink or dance. Catholics (used to) abstain from meat on Fridays. We give things up for Lent. Teens abstain from platonic dating. Fads come and go, fasting, meditation, life groups, accountability groups, condemnation of "worldly" music...on and on and on. Where do these things come from? Did Christ mandate them? No. They came from men. Want to partake, go ahead. If these things are important to you personally, do them. But don't follow the flock blindly! Don't do somthing just because the rest of the congregation does it. People get up and tearfully "testify", fall out in epileptic like seizures, speak gibberish...are these things of God? Maybe, but have you ever noticed how they seem to occur in clusters? Have you ever noticed that they seem to happen to one person and then spread?

Sheep believe in only one true form of worship. Worship is personal and comes in many forms. Worship can take place in a cathedral, a barn, a campsite, around a fire, alone in the truck, at your desk, anywhere and anytime you choose to worship, or feel the call to do so. Sheep believe that only their particular brand of worship is valid and any deviation is blasphemy. They believe in format rather than substance, procedure over content, choreography over authenticity. In their eyes, if you are not in church Sunday morning from 10-11 AM, wearing a tie and shined shoes, you cannot have a relationship with your Heavenly Father.

Sheep believe that questioning anything in the Bible is blasphemous. The Bible was written, interpreted and has been translated many times...by men. Fallible men. Men with agendas. Men without perfect knowledge of the intent of the words. Men without firsthand knowledge of the events they write about. A prime example is "Thou shall not kill". Virtually everyone, scholar and layman agrees that the correct meaning is "Thou shall not murder". So why is it not written that way? If the meaning is a prohibition against murder, the unjustified taking of a human life, rather than a prohibition against killing, ending the life of any living thing for any reason justified or not, why doesn't it say so? Sheep refuse even to consider that the words in the Bible could have been misinterpreted or distorted in the 2,000 or so years since they were first written.

and Saul slew his thousands but David slew his ten thousands

So that's my rant. And you are free to agree or disagree, support it or debate it, question it, ridicule it, laugh at it, adopt it as your own....because no one here is a sheep.[/quote]

[ScottyK]

As always Tony makes some fine points. I'm feeling too lazy this morning to properly use the reply tags, so I'm just going to type away.

1. I've been "ministered" to lots of times, and very frequently, it came from the average person, not the "professional" class. Most of the "sheep" in the churches these days look to the professionals as being infallible and perfect. I also believe that anybody, young or old, can minister to anybody else. I've recieved pearls of wisdom from kids younger than me, and God used them to give me fresh insight on something.

2. My previous church was big on the, "if you are not here between 10-11 AM and wearing your best church clothes, then you are sinning!" school of thought. Heard it from the pulpit several times. Preacher was slimy enough to rail against wearing shorts to church whenever I wasn't there!

3. I'm tired of this analogy that I'm just some stupid sheep, and without a "shepherd" in the form of the local clergy, I'm lost and helpless. I remember reading from my Bible that I'm created in the image of God, and I'm His best creation (ScottyK paraphase). The Shane's of the world hammer away that we are completely hopeless without the local church.

I still believe that overall the institutional church has problems, but for now I really feel that God doesn't want me to home church. Fair enough. I do whatever God wants for my family, and if it leads my family in a different direction, I'm cool with it.

After being involved with a really legalistic church, it's really enjoyable to go to another church and to be welcome for who you are, not how you are dressed or what you can bring to the church.

Speaking of which, I think it's about time to post something on my Facebook account to get Shane going. That's always good for a laugh.

[FatTony]

I still believe that overall the institutional church has problems, but for now I really feel that God doesn't want me to home church. Fair enough. I do whatever God wants for my family, and if it leads my family in a different direction, I'm cool with it.

He leads. I follow. Works for me.